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Big Debate |
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Serious, honest
debates between people who support the Palestinian perspective
of the conflict and those who support the Israeli perspective,
are a rarity. It is often the case that when the two parties are
brought together, a shouting match ensues, with the participants
talking past each other, asserting their respective points of
view with great vehemence, and then parting ways at the height
of disagreement, without even coming to an honest, clear-headed
mutual understanding of what is at the heart of the disagreement.
Below is an
attempt to bring the two sides together in a debate aimed at pinpointing
precisely where and how the two perspectives clash. The modest
hope is that with real understanding we will take a small step
towards peace.
The debate
starts with each side asking 5 "tough" questions --
i.e., questions meant to fundamentally challenge the worldview
posited by the other side. They will then answer them and open
the floor to public debate. People are invited to participate
freely, but only those who respect the spirit of the debate --
i.e., be constructive and not inflammatory -- are welcome.
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pro-Palestinian
Perspective (Ahmed
Bouzid) |
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pro-Israeli
Perspective (Michael Madwed) |
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The
Questions
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1) Israel
has been "cracking down" against terrorism for three decades now,
and yet to this day suicide bombings continue to take place --
why does Israel continue following a policy that is patently a
failure?
2) If Israel
were serious about a long-lasting peace with the Palestinians,
then why did it double the size of its settlements in the occupied
territories between 1993 and 2000?
3) If Palestinians
were only intent on destroying Israel, then why did attacks against
Israelis taper off to nothing when Barak seemed to be making progress
towards peace?
4) If Israel
really wants Arafat to reign in militants, as it says it does,
then why does it make it both politically and physically impossible
for him to do so by humiliating him, denouncing him as a criminal,
and physically dismantling his security apparatus and the infrastructure
of his authority?
5) If Israel
were really interested in ensuring the security of its citizens,
then why does it carry out assassinations, knowing full well that
such assassinations will only trigger another wave of suicide
bombings and escalate the cycle of violence?
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1)
Why does the PA only crack down on overt terrorist groups and
their well-known leaders when forced to by external forces or
events?
2)
Why don't Palestinians admit that many of Israel's security concerns
are real and must be addressed as a major part of any peace?
3)
Why haven't the Palestinians truly given passive, non-violent
resistance a real, sustained try in their entire history, vis-à-vis
Israel (particularly since other nations and slighted groups have
done so in history)?
4)
Israel was founded as a Jewish State, a homeland for a long mistreated
and maligned people. If Palestinians were truly willing to accept
Israel as a permanent neighbor, then why continue to push the
antithetical position that Zionism is racism?
5)
If a peace agreement with Israel entailed the following - secure
and contiguous borders, fair access to water, dismantling of some
or all settlements, a shared Jerusalem and possibly some monetary
compensation - would the Palestinian people be willing to give
up the right of return? In other words, is the right of return
negotiable or inviolable?
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The
Answers
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1) The PA
does harshly "crack down" on militants, risking civil war and
internecine strife, when hellfire is unleashed against it; but
we must keep in mind that the best security results -- almost
a whole year of no attacks on Israel during Barak's administration
-- were obtained when the Israelis and Palestinians were cooperating
with one another as partners. Arafat may appease the Israelis
by doing what he does best -- jail his opposition -- but to think
that forcing him to do so by destroying his helicopters and flattening
his police stations will bring about a more stable security situation
is a bit far fetched.
2) The Palestinians
HAVE admitted that Israel has security concerns and have said
as much repeatedly. Here is a quote from an official memorandum
released by the Palestinian Negotiating Team in January, 2001:
"The original Oslo Accords had mandated that the peace talks be
concluded three years ago with a Palestinian state and an Israeli
state living in freedom, security, and equality side by side."
Given that the Palestinians are signatories to the Oslo Accords,
it follows that they have officially admitted and accepted "that
many of Israel's security concerns are real and must be addressed
as a major part of any peace."
3) To be sure,
the non-violent option has not been pursued as energetically as
it should. But here my answer is two-fold: (a) The Israel occupation
has done its darnest to quell any movement toward non-violent
resistance. More than once, Palestinians have for instance attempted
to protest by not paying taxes. Israel reacted each time by "cracking
down" on them as if they were terrorists; and (b) Visit Hanan
Ashrawi's Miftah group, http://www.miftah.org
, for an example of a growing effort to push forward a non-violent
resistance movement with a strategy for the future. No one talks
about such efforts -- certainly not the US media -- since they
don't fit the easy caricature of mad, violent Palestinians.
4) The proposition
that Zionism is a form of racism may be jarring to those who champion
Zionism, but it is still the moral duty of the world to point
out that a state that explicitly -- via its law of return for
Jews, for instance, or its stated policy of increasing the Jewish
population in Israel, or its practice of denying Arabs the appropriation
of property -- promotes the welfare of one specific ethnic group
at the expense of another is engaging in racism. Moreover, the
racism issue is not a side question, but goes to the heart of
a VERY important piece of the puzzle towards peace: the right
of Palestinian refugees and their descendents driven from their
homes in 1948 and later, to return home. Israel has time and again
objected to their return not by arguing that they are not legally
entitled to reclaim their property, but by saying that if they
were allowed to return, the Jewish character of Israel would be
upset. That is patently a racist policy and a fundamental road
block to peace. The real question is: how can Israel pursue Zionist
goals and at the same time claim to be an egalitarian, liberal
modern democracy?
5) Only those
whose land, houses, and property, were illegally taken over by
the Israeli state have the right to negotiate over their right
of return. Any deal MUST take their respective voices into consideration,
and no one has the right to speak on their behalf without their
assent, be it the Palestinian Authority, the United Nations, or
any other legal entity. I am certain that a morally acceptable
solution to this problem does exist. The question is: does Israel
have the will to consider such solutions, or is ITS rejection
of any right of Palestinian return claims -- as stated by Barak
in the height of his "generosity" -- categorical and non-negotiable.
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1) Israelis
are imperfect human beings, just like everyone else. Due to the
endless series of actions and reactions, Israel is now seemingly
"locked" into this position. Of course, you could argue that there
would have been countless more suicide bombings had there been
no response by Israel. One supporting bit of evidence about this
is that there is no airline that cracks down on potential terrorist
activity better than El Al, and lo and behold, that airline is
the safest in the world. So maybe the policy is not a failure.
But, it is true that it cannot be defined as a success either.
2) I have
no supportive comments for the settlements. Unfortunately, there
are people in Israel that believe very passionately in that activity.
I believe that they are wrong. I believe that their presence is
an unnecessary barrier now to peace.
3) I think
that this question brings up two separate issues. First, there
is the issue of whether the Palestinians want to destroy Israel.
I would like to believe that this is no longer the case amongst
the group of Palestinians that are truly peace-desiring, however
large that group is. I am not completely convinced, unfortunately.
One reason is the longstanding policy stated in the PLO charter
which speaks again and again about basically destroying Israel.
Now this is an old charter, but why was that theme there in the
first place? A second reason is Palestinian insistence on the
full right of return, which would be a demographic, political
way of irrevocably changing Israel. The final reason is the championing
of the proposition that Zionism is racism, which is yet another
way of indirectly attacking the underpinnings of the Jewish state.
The second
part of the question is the issue of the frequency of attacks.
I am not as familiar as I would like to be about the accounting
of Palestinian attacks on Israel. If the frequency did indeed
decrease during this period, then that is good. It certainly proves
that the forces that want peace have the ability to control the
frequency of such attacks. One wonders why this control doesn't
always apply.
4) There
are times where it appears that Israel is simultaneously mistreating
Arafat and destabilizing him, while also asking him to come through.
At those moments, that doesn't seem fair. On the other hand, I
believe that Arafat has an abysmal record of following through
on real efforts to peace and that is very frustrating. He could
be described quite accurately as a coward, a corrupt leader, a
terrorist himself (see countless PLO activities that he personally
led in the past). Let's see if he comes through this time, particularly
with Egypt, Jordan and even Saudi Arabia now pressuring him publicly.
5) I agree
that the cycle of violence is out of hand and is leading everyone
down the wrong road. And when children die, especially, it is
truly tragic. It has become almost irrelevant who started it.
Israel seems to me to resort to assassinations of people known
to be masterminds behind suicide bombing on Israeli soil. They
do this because it feels that the Palestinian Authority won't
do its job, as a governing body should. The men that the Israelis
try to kill are criminals, killers, cowards. Once again, who knows
how many more Israelis would be killed if Israel did nothing.
I guess that you could also ask, why do Palestinian leaders think
that it is enough to express condolences for innocent Israelis
killed by suicide bombings, when they do very little of a permanent
nature to eliminate the forces that perpetuate the terrorism (even
though those people are well-known to all).
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Pro-Palestinian
criticism of Palestinians and their supporters |
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Pro-Israeli
criticism of Israelis and their supporters |
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1) Failure
of Palestinian leaders to articulate a specific mission and a
clear vision for their struggle. As much as they have been successful
in mobilizing public world opinion to their side, they still have
not been able to do it to the successful extent that the South
Africans were able to do against Apartheid.
2) Absence
of a long-term non-violent strategy that unites all Palestinians
in their struggle against the occupation. The Palestinian cause
can be pushed quite far if the Palestinian leadership invested
some of its effort in developing creative non-violent resistance
effort against which the IDF would be totally powerless.
3) Failure
of Arabs and Muslims to offer the Palestinians strong and consistent
backing beyond the usual empty rhetoric: e.g., money, economic
sanctions against the United States (as in passing legislation
that would block Arab companies from doing business with US companies
and passing them over for European companies).
4) Cynical
exploitation of the Palestinian struggle by Arab dictators primarily
concerned with detracting attention from their miserable regimes.
5) Lack of
respect for democratic principles and the rule of law by the Palestinian
Authority, and the attendant corruption.
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1) Israelis
should work much harder to empathize with the predicament of the
Palestinians and translate that empathy into action.
2) I have
lots of criticism for the whole settlement movement.
3) I don't
agree with the basic format of the Israeli government - I believe
in the American system, the two-party, representative democratic
system - I think that it fosters moderation. The current parliamentary
system with multiple parties fosters too much catering to extreme
elements.
4) I yearn
for greater Jewish religious diversity in Israel - there is too
much polarization between the ultra-Orthodox and the secular -
I think that the secular position is attractive as a response
to the ultra-Orthodox.
5) I wish
that more visionary leaders were at hand to lead the way to a
firm, just peace.
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Pro-Palestinian
expressions of praise/sympathy for Israelis |
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Pro-Israeli
expressions of praise/sympathy for Palestinians |
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1) I sympathize
with the Israelis' need to ensure their security and I recognize
the historical wrongs suffered upon Jews in general.
2) I admire
the Israelis' respect for freedom of expression: Israeli newspapers,
for instance, are far more informative and accepting of dissent
than are American newspapers.
3) I respect
how the Israelis were able to resurrect a virtually dead language
- Hebrew.
4) I respect
the Israelis' technological sophistication (minus their military
war machine)
5) To the
extent that the Israelis respect the rule of law and to the extent
that they abide by the principles of democratic participation
and inclusion, I do admire their democratic society. I also admire
the various Israeli peace-seeking groups and those who have stood
up against oppression and injustice, and more importantly, I respect
the fact that they can engage in such activities without fear
from despotic repression -- which is much more than I can say
for the Arab and Muslim regimes of today.
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1) I respect
the high level of education amongst the Palestinian people.
2) I respect
the perseverance to achieve nationhood.
3) I sympathize
with those who lose loved ones in the conflict very much, particularly
the innocents. I also sympathize with those parents who see their
children become lost to the dark side in the struggle. I sympathize
with those who lost their property in the late 40's as a result
of being forced to leave. They deserve some compensation.
4) I sympathize
with the very restricted life that is imposed due to the conflict
- the roadblocks, the lost economic and educational opportunities.
5) I feel
very badly for those Palestinians who foresaw a building of democratic
institutions in their territories as a result of Oslo, and instead
got despotic, corrupt government instead.
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| Post your comment
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Reader comments
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Michael Jeser [12/21/2001 11:10:03 AM]
The need to engage in open and reasonable debate is unquestionable. My issue lies in the fear of many Israelis, and not unfounded, that they face an existential threat. Less than twenty years ago, there were Arab leaders promising to bush the Jews into the sea. Israelis fear that every inch they give will only lead to a greater desire to take over all of Israel. This is not to ignore the Palestinian fear of what the settlements represent. They are two separate issues and the latter is one that continues to be a thorn for Israel. The major difference is that Israeli policy has never been one of domination. Settlements were not established by an aggressive act. They were in response to a war that was forced upon Israel. I guess my question here is why don't people ever question resolution 242? Don't people remember the context of which these settlements were established? I do not support the settlements, but fear that the withdrawel wil just bring the middle east to another boiling point, and one that Israel will not be able to defend. Israel was willing to live on the 1948 partition plan, but it's neighbours were not. It's not such a far out suggestion that a policy in the PA exists that means to destroy the stae of Israel. This is my fear. I want a just solution, but am learning to understand that the two sides imagine two different just solutions. In response to the partition of Israel, the Palestinian cause may not stop at a two state settlement. do people really think that Palestinians will be able to one day return to their homes in Haifa, Jaffo and Tel Aviv? If this has been promised to these people, i fear that this war will go on. Unfortunately, the people that impact policy are not the peace seeking majority. Hamas and Islamc Jihad run the show and essentially exploit the weakness of the current regime. I can only pray that the good intentioned sides from both peoples will shine through.
| mary quan [12/21/2001 2:53:16 PM]
I am in favor of a two state solution. I feel that the Israelis should without question move back to the 1967 borders and give equal access to water. Also, the Palestinians should have full sovereignty
over their skies. In return the State of Israel should finally be able to enjoy peace and live free from suicide bombings. Jerusalem should not go fully to either party but should be either split or put
under international rule. In terms of the right of return, this is an unreasonable demand. Some Palestinians should be allowed to return; I don't know what basis that would be determined on, but for the rest
there should be incentive enough to move and find new homes, with fair compensation provided at least in part by Israel.
My biggest fear however is that this resolution will come too late. If the two parties do not sit down at the table soon, I am afraid that when they do settle their differences they will be so alienated and mistrusting of each other that
they will enjoy a relationship that contains constant hostility and atagonism. This point may have already been reached, but dialogue like this must come soon..
Major complaints I have for both sides is- a non-violent peace movement would have gained a thousand fold more support than what the Palestinians have now. Also, I feel the Israeli government is guilty of lying (deliebrately, or
not) to their people and us Americans by exploiting their fears of destruction and anti-semtism, but also by isolating the Palestinians so that they cannot be allowed to express themselves. It is intolerable that
the leader of the Palestinian people is virtually under house arrest right now and not able to travel to Bethlehem without permission. How is peace supposed to begin with these right wing zealots in power, and being heavily supported by the
settlers.
| Ahmad Al-Tabarani [12/21/2001 3:40:58 PM]
*Israel gives the right to any Jew to settle in Israel but it denies the right of expelled Palestinians to return to their land that they were kicked out of it in the 1948 Arab Israeli war.
Being the nation that suffered most on the face of the earth doesn't give you the right to get reach your rights by denying the others.
The Might Is Right principle that the Israelis are using right now will turn against them one day.
| Nikolaus Lutz-Dettinger [12/21/2001 5:35:54 PM]
I wonder, what Michael Jeser means by stating that "the major difference is that Israeli policy has never been one of domination". Indeed, with the new cycle of violence now it is easy to claim, that the Israelis keep the settlements out of fear, for protection of the mere existence of Israel. But it should not be forgotten that immediately preceding the second intifada Israeli politicians were honest enough to admit, that they kept the settlements not for this reason, but because they needed them for their immigrants; it is completely unclear to me, how there can be any Israeli or anybody anyhow, who isn't able to see the utter criminality of this position.
I agree with the opinion that the demand for an absolute right to return (for Palestinians or for anybody else in the world) can only lead to a never ending succession of wars. Instead of "justice", which goes back in history indefinitely, we must try to accept old injustices and only correct the most recent ones. In other words: the palestinians have to accept the existence of Israel within its pre-1967-borders (and if they want to live there: accept that they live in Israel and have to live according to the rules of that country), while Israel has to retreat completely to the pre-1967-situation (and if Israelis want to stay outside these borders in their settlements, they must accept that they live in the state of Palestine and that they have to live according to the rules of that country). Of course, as any modern state, both the state of Israel and the state of Palestine should have a reasonably open policy towards foreigners, especially those who are already living in their country for years or for ever. Jerusalem should probably as a whole get international status, but while what I said higher up seems extremely straight forward and self-evident to me, I don't feel sure about the best solution for Jerusalem.
General conclusion: refrain from seeking absolute justice the more, the longer ago the injustice happened. Because, the longer ago the injustice happened, the more will it be impossible to get justice without inflicting new injustice at the same time.
Greetings, a belated Eid mubarak, joyful Christmas and a happy new year,
Dr. Nikolaus Lutz-Dettinger
| Suzanne Moorman Abdulhay [12/21/2001 6:01:19 PM]
The United States of America has funded the Jewish state of Israel for many years with billions of dollars making it the most powerful country in the Middle East and beyond. Israel is an incomparable occupier, with a bottomless bank roll, (today it has purchased 50 brand new F-l6's from Lockheed Martin) who has no country to answer to but the United States. All of the power, all of the weapons of mass destruction, all of the money is in the hands of the state of Israel. In my opinion, the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of Israel, for with the power they have had the solutions to this conflict for many years. Treat the Palestinians as brothers who are as much a part of that land as they are. Now, when I look at some of the things that they do to the Palestinians, I am reminded of what was done to them not even 60 years ago by racists of another time wanting power.
America and Israel could have peace tomorrow if they wanted it. But they have all the power and they don't have to listen to the Palestinians. As Americans, we give Palestinians no voice to tell their side of the story. With no microphone and no pen (or no one who will air your work or print your article) bombs say something. With no hope left, what the heck, a suicide bomb will say even more. It's time to listen to what the Palestinian has to say.
| Nisrine Barakeh [12/21/2001 6:01:33 PM]
The problem is that the root of the issues is never addressed by the Israelis. Certain truths are totally ignored They occupied Palestine in 1948. They practiced and continue to practice aggressive ethnic cleansing. They practically moved into houses which Palestinians were forced to evacuate under agression or the threat thereof (and thats the least of their crimes). Their claim is based solely on 'might is right' therefore and not on any moral grounds. I often wonder at the psychological make up of an Israeli. He knows he stole a country. He knows he doesnt have a moral right in even the air that he breathes in that country, very likely in a property where its inhabitants have been killed or worse, yet it seems he continues to live in Palestine48 quiet comfortably. He can do so in only 2 ways: he is horribly and willfully ignorant; or that he is really, a very immoral human being. Otherwise, he would be battling for Palestinian rights, as indeed a very small number of israelis seem to be doing (e.g Israel Shamir)or he would leave and refuse to be any part of such an occupation. The zionist racist excuse is all but totally discredited. Israel as sitting on top of a bloody Palestine, is only an extention of the European colonialist practices taken one step further, where the native people of a country counted for nothing. This in a nutshell is what Israel is all about. Israelis cannot in truth convince any sane human being, that its the will of God that they kill, rape, destroy, displace and steal, all in his name and for his sake.
The Israelis and the Palestinian so called 'negotiators' need to first face these facts squarely, and start from there, and not from 1967 occupation.
| Joachim Martillo [12/22/2001 4:07:24 AM]
Zionism is racist because it gives precedence to Jewish ethnic or racial rights over Palestinian human rights. With the proper substitution one could have made exactly the same point about Nazi ideology. Nazism is racist because it gives precedence to German ethnic or racial rights over Jewish human rights.
| A. Mahmoud [12/23/2001 11:06:39 AM]
In Order to reach reasonable peace agreement we need to keep the following in mind: 1- Asking the Israelis to end the occupation in the same time we ask for ending the Palestinian Uprising -or what's called the violence for 7 days-. 2-Give the right of return to the Palestinians expelled from their land. 3- All religions should have the religious access and right to practice and visit their holy lands.
| Iyas Maleh [12/26/2001 11:39:53 PM]
I am going to diagree with Mr. Ahmed Bouzid here for a second in regard to his admiring the Zionist Occupying Power for their democratic society to quote from the Jewish Defence League website article titled "Jews Deported from Israel": "The great State of Israel. We are all taught that there is a place where Jews can go and be granted sanctuary and instant citizenship, and where we would be embraced into the sodality promised by G-d and our common ancestors. We view Israel as the place where all Jews could go if, G-d forbid, there was another Holocaust; we see it as the nation as where we can be publicly proud of our Judaism, and surrounded by our heritage. I am sorry to report that this land no longer exists, Jews that want to help their people and take a stand against the perversion that spills Jewish blood every day are sent a new message: Stay home. You're not wanted." by Ian Rakow. From that article we find that some Jews who tried to go to Palestinian Occupied Terretories were descriminated against and sent back to the US for one reason or another. There are Jews in Prison because they stood up to the Terrorist Government of Ariel Sharon I can provide names from the Amnesty International files... So where is that so called democratic society? I intentionally did not mention any of their Human Rights abuses against Palestinians (and there are so many of them they would fill volumes) so no one will accuse me of being bias here. I did not want to mention the Druz who are in prison for their refusal to serve in the Israeli Military.
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